Some credit union leaders are investing in community growth, building small business programs, and doing the hard work. Others are still hiding behind “we can’t” and it might just be costing the industry its future.
In this episode of Grow Your Credit Union, host Joshua Barclay is joined by co-host Becky Reed and guest John Holt, CEO of Nutmeg State Financial Credit Union to talk about the controversy around CEO golden parachutes, the real opportunity in small business lending, and whether CDFI grants are worth the strings attached.
A huge thanks to our sponsor, PFP Services
Are CEO Mergers Serving Members or Payouts?
Some in the industry worry that outgoing CEOs are using mergers as personal exit strategies instead of pursuing what’s best for the credit union.
John Holt, who’s led multiple mergers, says the reality is more nuanced. In some cases, boards are simply making up for a lack of long-term planning. “You’re getting capital, you’re getting branches, you’re getting membership,” he says. “Paying out a CEO who never had a retirement plan can be a fair trade.”
Becky Reed agrees—but says we need to look harder at who’s getting left behind. “It happens to women way more than it happens to men,” she says. Many women in small credit unions don’t push for proper retirement plans and get little support from their boards. That makes mergers one of the only options left. Transparency, succession planning, and gender equity need to be part of the merger conversation.
Why Credit Unions Shouldn’t Ignore Small Business Lending
According to the U.S. Small Business Administration, 96% of small businesses do not bank with credit unions.
John Holt believes small business lending is the smarter bet. At Nutmeg, they’ve grown their portfolio to $70 million and are building out full treasury services. “It’s more personalized, and it’s what our communities need,” he says.
Becky is blunt: “I’m sick and tired of credit unions saying they can’t. Wah-wah-wah, regulation. Wah-wah-wah, it’s too hard.” She urges leaders to stop hiding behind excuses and start using CUSOs and phased rollouts to build small business capacity. “Think big, start small,” she says. “You don’t need to do it all on day one.”
When Grant Money Comes with Too Many Strings
The latest federal budget proposal recommends cutting discretionary awards from the CDFI fund, which has reignited debate across the credit union industry.
John Holt says his team is opting out. “It’s become so complicated, you basically need a full-time person just for the reporting,” he says. Instead, they’re going after low-income designation and focusing their efforts where they matter most—delivering for members.
Becky shares that Lone Star Credit Union made similar choices. “We were going to do the work anyway,” she says. “At a certain point, a $2,500 grant isn’t worth the 25 hours it takes to apply.” Both agree: if your mission is strong, you shouldn’t need a grant to do the right thing.
Top Takeaways from This Episode
- CEO payouts in mergers can be justified, but boards need better succession planning.
- Small business lending isn’t out of reach. With the right partners and training, it’s a growth engine.
- The CDFI fund helps, but it shouldn’t define your mission. Serve underserved communities with or without a grant.
- Leaders need to stop blaming regulation and start acting with purpose.
- Cultural fit and community impact, not retirement packages, should drive merger decisions.
Contribute to the Conversation
We want to hear from you. Send us your questions, challenges, or ideas for future episodes. We welcome your ideas, questions, and stories. Email us at info@growyourcreditunion.com or connect with us on LinkedIn.
Full Transcript
Joshua Barclay: Credit Union Community, these are your three topics for today’s show. First up, are some Credit Union CEOs cashing in on mergers as golden parachutes? Next up, 96% of Credit Unions are not in a small business lending game. Can they overcome the regulatory hurdles and turn it into a growth engine? And finally, is the CDFI fund a smart investment or just another government handout? We’re breaking down these topics and more.
[Music playing]
Joshua Barclay: Welcome to grow your credit union. This is the podcast where credit union leaders gather, learn, and grow. I am your host, Joshua Barclay. And before we start, if you have any topics that you want us to cover on the show, reach out to me personally at joshua@growyourcreditunion.com. All right. Today my co-host is back in the mix. Becky Reed, happy to have you back as my co-pilot.
Becky Reed: Aw, thank you, Josh.
Joshua Barclay: Before we begin today’s show, I want to mention our sponsor, PFP Services. You will hear more about them later on in the show. Becky, you are right now recording with us from San Diego at the Correlation event. Tell me your learnings, insights, anything cool you saw or heard at the show.
Becky Reed: Well, I’ve been a long-time Correlation fan. Lone Star Credit Union converted to Correlation in 2017, and I was on their advisory board. So they’re a fantastic core. And one of the things that my colleague, Don, mentioned to me while we were here with BankSocial, and he said, “The feeling of this conference feels a little bit different than some of the other conferences, especially core conferences, because their customers aren’t pissed off.”
[Laughter] I was like, “You know, that’s kind of true.” But good news too is a lot of people have come up to me at this conference and told me how much they love our show. So, Grow Your Credit Union is pretty popular amongst Correlation clients, apparently.
Joshua Barclay: I love it. Okay, Correlation. Hey, we love you back. Yeah. And that’s hilarious, by the way. Because you are right, most people, you talk to them about their core and they’re like, “Are we off the record? Because I’ll tell you how I really feel,” you know? [Laughs]
We got an awesome show, but I mean, I don’t need to say that, Becky, because pretty much every show is awesome. Today’s guest is brought to us by our sponsor, PFP Services. Please welcome the CEO of Nutmeg State Financial Credit Union, John Holt. John, welcome to Grow Your Credit Union.
John Holt: How you doing? Thanks for having me.
Joshua Barclay: This question actually came in from a listener. His name is Justin Houle. He’s the VP and CFO at Heartland Credit Union. He said he’s been seeing retiring CEOs push mergers not for strategy, but for personal payout. Now, that is a move that can erase local credit unions and, honestly, sideline the next generation of leaders. So John, do you think some credit union mergers are in fact being driven more by CEO exit strategies than by what’s best for the members?
John Holt: So I haven’t experienced that, and we’re going on our third merger. So the first one we completed probably five years ago, small credit union, 30 million, and there was nothing given to the CEO at all. We absorbed him into our staff.
The second one we just did completed in January, that CEO already had a contract and all of the things that go along with that, including his retirement plans. And he was going to stay on, and then once it got going, he decided to exit. We did pay him out, his contract.
And the third one that we’re working on that we just announced this past week, quite honestly, the CEO had no retirement plans at all. There was absolutely nothing. And she had been working in the industry for 50 years and got nothing from it.
So, her board did put some stuff into place just before the merger, which was appropriate. And quite honestly, they were planning to do it anyway, whether we merged or not. It was more coincidental. And what we did is we made a deal where we would pay her taxes on the particular retirement plan that they put into place for her.
And I suppose there’s probably some CEOs that do that. But any credit union that I would merge with, it has to be realistic because it’s all about what’s best for the member. And all of these things are disclosed. They’re disclosed to the NCUA, they’re all public, all of the information is public, anyone can see it. So I don’t think you want to necessarily do things that are too outrageous because I’m not sure how that would go over with the membership or the communities.
But in some cases, I think it does make sense to do something because you’re getting all of the capital from these credit unions, you’re getting the membership, you’re getting the branches in some cases. And I’m going to go back to the capital.
In our case, this latest merger is going to give us $16 million in capital. And if I have to pay somebody a little bit of money to get that capital, which would take absolutely forever to get… I mean, it would take us years to get that amount of capital, even with strong earnings.
So to me, you have to look at it both ways. And then their membership, this credit union we’re merging with currently in the process of, I mean, all these members are going to get better technology, they’re going to get more branches, they’re going to get more products and services, and our strategies align perfectly to what the membership wants.
So I think the situation, I’m sure there’s some things that look a little strange, but I haven’t come across that, and I don’t know if I would fully support it if I thought that that’s exactly what was happening with the credit union I was merging with.
Joshua Barclay: John, very, very nuanced answer. I like that. It’s not as cut and dry. Justin, I’m sorry if you were looking for a more controversial take. Although, wait a second, because we have Becky Reed coming in next who may have a more controversial take. Becky, what do you think about what Justin was asking? Do you see some credit union mergers being sort of the golden parachute for that particular CEO at the organization?
Becky Reed: In some cases, yes. And it goes back to John’s answer for one of the situations that he described earlier in that the credit union board has not put a retirement plan in place for their CEO. And in the smaller credit union category, I hate to say, that is quite common, actually.
And I’m going to go further and say it happens to women at small credit unions way more than it happens to men in small credit unions. Now why is that? Because most women are not the major breadwinner in their family. This is a second income job. They’ve worked there for a long time, and they don’t feel comfortable standing up for themselves and making sure that that happens. Whereas, frankly, a lot of times men do.
And so, because they haven’t done that, that’s kind of where that whole succession planning thing comes in. There’s a big controversial thing, NCUA mandates succession planning and all this stuff because now people are merging because there’s no succession plan and whatever.
But unfortunately, I mean, that’s a terrible situation and it can seem like maybe that’s the reason the CEO has made the decision to merge. Now, we all know lots of other people have to make the decision to merge. It’s not just the CEO’s decision. Certainly, the CEO can facilitate those discussions, the CEO might start those discussions, but it’s the board and the membership at the end of the day.
And John is absolutely right. NCUA does require that all of those things are disclosed publicly, which is why people write about it, because those things are public. And sometimes, to be fair, things can be taken out of context. It’s kind of like saying, “Oh my gosh, these CEOs of these giant companies are making billions of dollars a year.”
And it’s because the dollars a year that they’re disclosing as compensation or things like stock options and non-cash compensation that makes it sound just like a crazy number when in reality it’s just not. And when you compare it to the annual revenue of the company, $2 million salary just isn’t that big of a deal.
So I’m not saying credit unions earn that kind of money, but it’s a similar kind of thing. Somebody’s worked 50 years for a financial institution, they have no retirement plan in place, putting a million dollars into a retirement plan or 457F or something for this person, or into an IRA, I mean, for 50 years worth of service, it sounds a lot more controversial than it is. So that would be my kind of double-sided answer.
John Holt: Yeah. And I think one of the things that I’ll add also to this is that, I mean, if there’s a payout or payouts, because sometimes it involves more than the CEO… I mean, we’ve put contracts into place for some of the executives who’ve had nothing. They’ve had no contracts. They’ve had no bonus plans. They’ve had no retirement plans.
I mean, if you eat up all of the capital for payouts like that, that’s probably a little noticeable in some cases. And I’ve also read some of those particular situations where that’s happened, but I don’t know if that would be healthy. And I would wonder at the end of the day, what would happen with a situation like that?
The things that we’re doing are not out of the ordinary. I think that they’re justified. I think they make sense. And when you look at the big picture of what you’re getting, not only capital and all the other things I talked about, I think those are the things that really matter.
It’s like what value, what additional value add can you bring to the membership? And in some cases, in this particular situation, the other CEO that had retired had used a large portion of that 25% that is only allowed in non-permissible investments for retirement plans. So they didn’t think there was a way around it. We were able to work with Gallagher and figure a way around that.
Joshua Barclay: According to the NCUA, federally-insured credit unions saw a 22% jump in commercial lending in 2022. Now, some are saying that that is a signal that more credit unions are stepping up to serve small and mid-sized businesses despite the regulatory hurdles.
But designing sound loan policies and training staff to manage complex business accounts is not easy for credit unions. In fact, probably many would say the risk still outweighs the reward. So my question for you, John, is, is it really possible, given the regulatory hurdles, for credit unions to step up in small business lending and use that as a real driver of growth?
John Holt: Yeah. We are in commercial lending. We started it… I got to Nutmeg in 2010, so we started it probably 2011 or 2012, and we used a consulting firm to get us going, developed it. We focused on small business. We didn’t do anything crazy.
And then as time went on, we got a little bit, took a little more risk, got a little more resources with experience, trained an inside person, sent them to the QS business lending school for three years. And our portfolio is about $70 million right now.
Now what we’re doing is we’re taking a step back and we’re getting ready to launch something even bigger. So with that $69 million or so in our portfolio, we’re going to go the extra mile and create a bigger portion of the business around deposits and treasury services like ACH, direct deposit, and all of the things that the small businesses or a medium-sized business or a large business would need from us.
We found out that the experience is key to this. So we hired an individual just recently who had been at a very large credit union out West who had worked for a couple large banks and had a lot of credit analysis background, was a credit manager, so knows the insides and outs of all the underwriting.
And so we’ll be able to take away the consulting firm eventually and put everything to him and some of the team that he’s hiring. And we believe that it’s going to be huge for us especially around the addition of the deposits and the additional treasury services that will come along with what we’re doing.
And we’re using Tru Treasury, the CUSO, to help us with the treasury services here at Nutmeg. But I think it’s a huge win for small businesses to work with a credit union versus a large bank. It’s more personalized. We can sit down. We can look at different options. We can find out what’s best for the business. So I think it makes a lot of sense.
The challenge, I think, is we have a CDFI designation now that’s probably not going to last, and I know that’s going to be another topic of conversation. And I’ll explain why. The challenge now is if you’re not LID certified or you don’t have CDFI, you’re capped.
And so we have to be careful of that or find another way around that, which there’s other ways around that, including participating out portions of perhaps a large loan. But again, our focus is on the small business, the startup business, and figuring a way out to help businesses get going without taking too much risk. So that’s where we’re at, at Nutmeg right now.
Joshua Barclay: I love that you’re doing it. So many people that I talk to, they dance around that particular question and, “Oh, there’s regulatory hurdles,” and, “We can’t do it because of XYZ.” So Becky, you’re very much a person who believes that anything can be done. You just heard that John is actively participating in small business lending, growing that share of the business.
Let me give you a couple of stats that I thought were really interesting when it comes to this topic. One of them was by Cary Telander Fortin, and she wrote that, “According to U.S. Small Business Administration, 96% of small businesses do not bank credit unions.”
Now, let me pair that with another stat, Becky. Credit unions share of new and used car loans is about 22.9% of the entire market in Q1, and that was down a little bit from 27%. So kind of what I want to attack here, Becky, is this idea that credit unions have been so heavy in auto lending, which you’re giving a loan for a liability, and yet we only [Laughs] have about 4% of the small business market. So I guess this is a long-winded way of asking, do you see small business lending as the big future opportunity for credit unions? What’s your take?
Becky Reed: Short answer, it is an opportunity for credit unions. Because if we really mean to focus and invest in our communities, you have to invest in small business. That’s how America works, right? And certainly, we might have all started out being a consumer financial institution primarily, but guess what? It’s members who start businesses.
There’s lots and lots of people who have sole proprietorships, side gigs, those kinds of things. And I think it’s our responsibility as community financial institutions, community cooperative financial institutions to provide that service. And as a matter of fact, members a lot of times ask for those things.
Now, what I’m going to address is the C word. I am sick and tired of credit unions saying I can’t. “Wah-wah-wah, regulation,” “Wah-wah-wah, it’s too hard,” “Wah-wah-wah, it’s too much risk.” Give me a break. Look, you just heard an excellent example of how John hired some people to help him implement a program at Nutmeg. That’s genius.
We have a thing at BankSocial that we say all the time, and it’s, “Think big, start small.” You don’t have to have a $70 million portfolio the first year you’re doing these things. You also have to have an attractive deposit program, which is what they’re using Tru Treasury for.
Because small businesses need those kinds of things too. They need way more than just loans. So you have to serve the holistic member, right? The member who’s doing all of those things, who might need accounts payable assistance, who might need tax assistance.
I mean there’s all kinds of ancillary products that you can add on to that that help the end consumer, the member, at the end of the day, regardless of if it’s a business or not. And everybody sitting around, wringing their hands, talking about how hard it is and how they don’t want to take a risk.
There are CUSOs out there that handle all of these things. You can just go to a CUSO and actually plug into what they do and do all of this right away without having to build it yourself. So I just want to address that I can’t. I’m sick and tired…
I don’t care what the size of the credit union is. Okay. Everybody says, “Well, small credit unions say can’t all the time.” No, no, no, I hear big credit unions saying it too, and I’m tired of it. Because if our industry is full of can’ts, it’s never going to be can.
John Holt: I celebrate that. You’re spot on with that. I think we need to be in a place where we can figure out how to do it. And there are a number of ways to figure things out. And that was kind of the… We’re one of the only credit unions, in fact, maybe the only credit union in Connecticut that actually does business lending. And everyone was like, “Oh, it’s too risky.”
Well, it depends on how you do it. It depends on what reporting you have. It depends on what audits that you have, so on and so forth. There’s ways to manage it. And we’ve done just fine. We’ve had a few things here and there, but who wouldn’t? I mean, businesses have had challenges, whether it’s through COVID or any of that stuff.
But I’m really super excited about what we’re doing this year. And by the end of the year, we’re going to have a full suite of deposit products and treasury services for businesses. And we have a really solid team now. So any small business or even medium-sized business, and we’ll do large businesses too, we may have to participate out the loans as part of the loans, but I think it’s a great opportunity.
And what we also do is we ask for their employee accounts. So this is not just about the business. It’s like, “Hey, let us come in there and talk about the credit union products and services, and tell your employees the benefits of banking with a credit union,” And so it becomes a bigger relationship than just that loan or that deposit product for the business.
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The latest federal budget proposal recommends cutting discretionary awards from the CDFI fund, a move that sparked, let’s call it backlash, across the credit union industry. Credit union leaders warned this would hit underserved communities hard from low-income neighborhoods to military families. Some argue that programs like the CDFI fund create a dependency on federal dollars. Okay, John, what’s your take? Is the CDFI fund an investment or a handout?
John Holt: That’s a tough one. I think, again, it depends on the credit union. And we are a CDFI credit union. We got designated probably four or five years ago. We got some grants. And at that point in time, when we got the grants, it was like, “Okay, here.” [Laughs] And we were like, “Okay.”
And the reporting was minimal to some degree. But we always made sure that we were doing what we were supposed to do, making sure the funds were used with the intent that we had them. Quite honestly, it’s become so complicated with the reporting now and the requirements, so we’re not going to…
Our certification runs out in September. We’re not going to renew it because I have felt as though it’s too much. It’s almost like you need a full-time person to do a lot of the reporting. And we actually do use some consulting services through Inclusive, but quite honestly, what we’re going to do is we’re going to try to get our low income designation. Probably going to be a little bit of a challenge for us here in Connecticut.
But even without grants, even without CDFI, our focus is on working with the underserved market, the lower-income to moderate-income individuals, and creating products and services to help them. We would be doing that whether we had a grant or we didn’t have a grant.
I think what’s now happening, probably there were some credit unions taking it as a handout and using it for purposes that were unintended, and then they got to the point where, in my opinion, it’s gotten so complicated. My team and I looked around, and I even consulted with the board, I’m like, “Is this even worth it to do this at this point? Is there another way to do what we were doing?”
And the answer is yes. And that is to have a strategy that is around what CDFI’s intent was. And so we’re going to try to for the low-income designation. But again, we’re far off from the percentage that we need from the NCUA to get there, but that’s still our focus.
And our field of membership can extend throughout the United States. We’re concentrated here in Connecticut, but one of the things, we have an association with the Community Impact Fund out of Colorado, so our membership, as long as people join that particular CIF, we can go forward and do the things that we’re doing across the country.
So we actually have to find pockets of low income areas, and the heat map for that has changed dramatically and changes over time. And there have been changes the way the designation works to get to the percentages that you need. So all of that tracking, all of that stress, we’re just going to do it our way and not use the CDFI fund.
And I know a lot of people have done very well with it. I know it’s helped a lot of people and I know it’s helped a lot of credit unions, but it just quite honestly didn’t work the way we wanted to with all of the changes that the CDFI fund has had. And now you have this with it potentially being cut in our political world here, so.
Joshua Barclay: So, sounds like there are a lot of strings attached to these funds, lots of headaches attached to these funds. Becky, I saw you nodding your head every time John mentioned some of these headaches associated with this money. Talk to me about this money. Is it a handout? Is it an investment? What’s your take, Becky?
Becky Reed: Well, I think that his first comment is telling, and that is, “We got money and we were like, ‘Really?’ I mean, you’re giving us money? That wasn’t very hard.” And so that’s a problem with CDFI just handing out money without people really expressing too much of a need, right? So you just kind of raise your hand and you get a check. So that’s not great.
But we were a low-income designated credit union at Lone Star and we looked at becoming CDFI. And we rarely used some of the low-income designated abilities access because of the red tape and the headache. And you might get a $2,500 grant to buy a couple laptops, but it would take somebody 25 hours to write the grant request.
And all of the things you have to do to prove you spent the money how you said you were going to, it was more trouble than it was worth. And to John’s point, this is stuff we were doing anyway. It wasn’t like we weren’t going to buy a laptop to go use in the community to help people. We were going to do that anyway. Great. We got a grant to pay for it, but we were going to do that anyway.
And so I really think that the abuses were not happening in the credit union space, in actual financial institution space. Maybe there were some abuses there, but I really think it’s a broader problem with the CDFI in general, the fund, not individual financial institutions for the most part. So maybe not too controversial of an answer, but at the end of the day, I do think it’s a handout. [Laughs]
Joshua Barclay: Some of the real worry, Becky, though, and I’d love you to address this, and you kind of already did, but I just think for the listeners, I think the big thing that I keep hearing about when it comes to this, or at least the outrage or the controversy becomes, people feel like the CDFI fund has helped a lot of underprivileged communities. It’s helped a lot of those less fortunate. It’s had a community impact. Do you feel like that community impact goes away at all because of the disappearance of these funds? I mean, you kind of said it.
Becky Reed: I would say that credit unions are serving underserved communities, whether CDFI funds are there or not. And so that’s our job. That’s what we were built to do. That’s what our members expect. And so the grant money certainly helps, but it doesn’t change our mission.
Joshua Barclay: That brings us to the end of the show. John, you were brought here by PFP Services, our sponsor, so I have to ask you, as a partner of PFP Services, talk to us about the impact and sort of the benefits that you have seen as a partner with them.
John Holt: Well, first of all, they’re all great people, and we have such a good relationship with all of them. They’re close to us and they’ve done so many things to help us. And I worked with them at my past credit union. I used to work in Miami at Dade County Federal, and that’s where I met a lot of them.
And the amount of things that they can do to help your members, including helping sell your products and services to the membership is huge. And then add on to that the insurance products that they offer to help protect people’s lives or in the event of some illness or something like that, they’re there for all of that.
But I think about business development in general and how important that is in communities, and for the credit union to get out there, and whether it’s meeting partnerships, and I’ll use the word SEG, because I think that’s probably still used and common in the industry, if we wanted to identify a company we wanted to go into and get our foot in the door, these folks go in there, help us break the ice, introduce us to the company. Because they’re amazing in getting into the company.
And they’ve been known to not only… And this is a while ago, but they would go into the branches. If there was a branch inside a grocery store, they’d walk the aisles, talking to people about your products and services, your brand, your credit union, and now they’re doing a bunch of stuff online and via the telephone.
And it also adds an amazing touch because they do things like reaching out to our members for their anniversary of their membership or their birthday. So it adds a whole realm to the business development world, to the relationships that you have with your members, to being able to get into a company that you’ve wanted to get into but you might not have the resources, that’s the key thing.
And when I got to Nutmeg and we’re like, “Okay, I can’t hire two or three people to go and do all of this,” and they did it for us and continue to do that. And then on top of that, they give you some residual on products and services that you refer to them, and they refer your products and services back to you.
So as they’re talking to all these people, they’re saying, “Well, hey, what about a credit card in addition to the life insurance policy that I just sold you?” So I think the partnership’s gone a long way. I would highly recommend them to any credit union that is not using them today.
Joshua Barclay: Excellent. And you know, I want to say that I’m sorry. Because you mentioned moving from Miami to Connecticut, and I want to just say I’m so sorry for your loss. [Laughs]
John Holt: Well, I still have a place down there, so I spend as much time as I can in the winter there. So I think I have the best of both worlds. [Laughs]
Joshua Barclay: Okay. Becky, final words based on our conversation today.
Becky Reed: I think that I’ll leave you guys with a phrase that Kyle Hauptman says all the time, who is the only board member right now [Laughs] at NCUA. He happens to be the chair. But whenever he speaks, he talks about risk and equates it to planes.
And I think that what we talked about earlier today where credit unions were unwilling to take risks, even if they’re managed risks, but then that holds us back. We’re ultimately not doing what we’re supposed to be doing and not serving the members in the way that we should because we’re too afraid of risk.
What he says is, “There were zero plane crashes before we had planes.” So we got to take risks guys. Risks comes with the territory. We certainly can do everything we can to make sure that nothing bad happens, but something bad is going to happen. We can either learn from it or we can go roll up in a ball and hide in the corner.
And if we don’t, as an industry, start being more comfortable with risk, lots of ways to mitigate risk, then we’re not thriving. And at the end of the day, we’re not helping our member owners.
Joshua Barclay: Becky, if anybody wants to get in touch with you, how can they do that?
Becky Reed: LinkedIn.
Joshua Barclay: And John, I have to ask you the same question. For listeners who are liking what you’re putting down, what is the best way they can get in touch with you?
John Holt: LinkedIn is probably the best too.
Joshua Barclay: Awesome. I want to thank John, I want to thank Becky, and I want to thank our sponsor PFP Services. You can check them out at familysecurityplan.com. And then obviously, I want to give a special thanks to our listeners for continuing to support and listen to another episode of Grow Your Credit Union.
If you like the show, please follow us on your podcast player of choice. And if you want to be a guest or you would like to talk about sponsorship opportunities, head to growyourcreditunion.com to learn more. Thank you for listening and we will see you next time. Take care and bye-bye.
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